Strategy
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- L2PvT
- Protoss Timing Pushes and Pressures
- Ultra-ling-b bomb
- Danze PvZ (Danze's Performance/Skill) Please Comment and Criticize.
- How Do you stop 2 Rax as Toss?
- PVP aggresion build
- For My Protoss Buddies. (Zergs: read at your own risk!)
TSL and forcefields
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Ok seriously there is 5 roaches in that forcefield ring, just left to die. This is in the early-mid game where unit numbers are still low, losing 5 roaches for nothing is huge! Someone explain how this is fair :S.
Force fields are just a bit silly, idk what idra could have done to prevent that.
March 27 2011 19:34
qft.Shroom wrote:
They're definitely powerful. I don't think it should be nerfed though. I haven't watched the games, but from what I've heard:
SpoilerIdra knew that a mass gateway unit push was coming and built 7 drones. Wtf? That's fair enough if he's going to make a bunch of spine crawlers (which look like they would've been better than units in that situation), but just staying on a few roach and making lots of drones when you know your opponent is about to drop the hammer, is a tad stupid.I could of course be talking about the wrong game. But IdrA is vulnerable to this type of shit. I honestly don't think he's a good person to use as an example for anything because even he could beat it he wouldn't make the necessary changes to do so imo. He literally believes the zerg should be able to comfortably macro no matter what his opponent is doing.
Spinecrawlers are so underused it's ridiculous. If Terran has to build 5-6 bunkers to stop this type of attack then why doesn't zerg have to build spine crawlers? Also you have to realise how much money is going into those sentries. He spent like 7-8 forcefields to trap 5 roaches, that's at least 4 sentries worth of energy at that point in the game.
Because spine crawlers take 20 seconds more to build than a bunker. And if I build 5-6 spine crawlers, I can't salvage them and get my money back. Yes, I know that just because a Terran can salvage their bunkers doesn't mean they get their complete value back because of the time lost building the bunkers and not making the units. But the point is you CAN get the money back.FighT wrote:
Shroom wrote:
They're definitely powerful. I don't think it should be nerfed though. I haven't watched the games, but from what I've heard:
SpoilerIdra knew that a mass gateway unit push was coming and built 7 drones. Wtf? That's fair enough if he's going to make a bunch of spine crawlers (which look like they would've been better than units in that situation), but just staying on a few roach and making lots of drones when you know your opponent is about to drop the hammer, is a tad stupid.I could of course be talking about the wrong game. But IdrA is vulnerable to this type of shit. I honestly don't think he's a good person to use as an example for anything because even he could beat it he wouldn't make the necessary changes to do so imo. He literally believes the zerg should be able to comfortably macro no matter what his opponent is doing.
qft.
Spinecrawlers are so underused it's ridiculous. If Terran has to build 5-6 bunkers to stop this type of attack then why doesn't zerg have to build spine crawlers? Also you have to realise how much money is going into those sentries. He spent like 7-8 forcefields to trap 5 roaches, that's at least 4 sentries worth of energy at that point in the game.
Your opponent moves out. You drop 5 bunkers. He see's it, he retreats, you scout it, you salvage your bunker and make an expansion, barracks, factory, whatever. A Zerg? I see Protoss move out, I drop 5 spine crawlers, it takes 20 more seconds to build, my opponent reaches my base, he sees spine crawlers, he retreats, now I'm stuck with 500 minerals that I can't get back and put behind. That is why spine crawlers are so "underused". Because given the time they take to build, they are not cost efficient, especially when your facing a formidable opponent(most apparent in higher tier skill levels) where your Protoss opponent will DENY your scouting, even if you sac an ovie, and you won't have enough time for your spine crawlers to finish. Watch the game and IdrA sacs an overlord and doesn't get any intel at all. By the time he sees Cruncher moves out, Crunchers natural is fairly saturated to support the 5 gate push that he did to take out IdrA. Plus, 20 seconds is a really fucking long time, especially in the positions on Crevasse where IdrA played Cruncher.
I'm not saying Cruncher didn't beat IdrA fair and square, because IdrA was pretty stupid to make drones once he saw that pushing coming. This is just what I got from the game after watching it three times. July lost the SAME build in the SAME position vs oGsMC in the GSL finals. That's when MC mannered Nexus him. Something about those positions and that build that makes it really fucking hard to stop on that map.
I definitely agree with Fight, spines are really fucking good and with decent creep spread you can keep reusing them. Zergs are just getting to greedy. Comparing spines to bunkers is a bad way to prove balance.Bobotastic wrote:
FighT wrote:
Shroom wrote:
They're definitely powerful. I don't think it should be nerfed though. I haven't watched the games, but from what I've heard:
SpoilerIdra knew that a mass gateway unit push was coming and built 7 drones. Wtf? That's fair enough if he's going to make a bunch of spine crawlers (which look like they would've been better than units in that situation), but just staying on a few roach and making lots of drones when you know your opponent is about to drop the hammer, is a tad stupid.I could of course be talking about the wrong game. But IdrA is vulnerable to this type of shit. I honestly don't think he's a good person to use as an example for anything because even he could beat it he wouldn't make the necessary changes to do so imo. He literally believes the zerg should be able to comfortably macro no matter what his opponent is doing.
qft.
Spinecrawlers are so underused it's ridiculous. If Terran has to build 5-6 bunkers to stop this type of attack then why doesn't zerg have to build spine crawlers? Also you have to realise how much money is going into those sentries. He spent like 7-8 forcefields to trap 5 roaches, that's at least 4 sentries worth of energy at that point in the game.Because spine crawlers take 20 seconds more to build than a bunker. And if I build 5-6 spine crawlers, I can't salvage them and get my money back. Yes, I know that just because a Terran can salvage their bunkers doesn't mean they get their complete value back because of the time lost building the bunkers and not making the units. But the point is you CAN get the money back.
Your opponent moves out. You drop 5 bunkers. He see's it, he retreats, you scout it, you salvage your bunker and make an expansion, barracks, factory, whatever. A Zerg? I see Protoss move out, I drop 5 spine crawlers, it takes 20 more seconds to build, my opponent reaches my base, he sees spine crawlers, he retreats, now I'm stuck with 500 minerals that I can't get back and put behind. That is why spine crawlers are so "underused". Because given the time they take to build, they are not cost efficient, especially when your facing a formidable opponent(most apparent in higher tier skill levels) where your Protoss opponent will DENY your scouting, even if you sac an ovie, and you won't have enough time for your spine crawlers to finish. Watch the game and IdrA sacs an overlord and doesn't get any intel at all. By the time he sees Cruncher moves out, Crunchers natural is fairly saturated to support the 5 gate push that he did to take out IdrA. Plus, 20 seconds is a really fucking long time, especially in the positions on Crevasse where IdrA played Cruncher.
I'm not saying Cruncher didn't beat IdrA fair and square, because IdrA was pretty stupid to make drones once he saw that pushing coming. This is just what I got from the game after watching it three times. July lost the SAME build in the SAME position vs oGsMC in the GSL finals. That's when MC mannered Nexus him. Something about those positions and that build that makes it really fucking hard to stop on that map.
Crunchers build was 1gate expo -> 6gate attacked at 9min.
at 9min he attacked with 7sent/4stalker/1z not even that many units really.
Idra would have lost even if he did not get those units ffed perfectly.
generally mass burrow roach > gateway attack, or hydra I guess. or spine up+all units if you are surprised.
FighT wrote:
SpoilerAnypro used exactly the same build order as Cruncher. Sen did not know this attack was coming until anypro pushed out, he then proceded to build 6 spines crawlers and pumped as many units as he could and held it off perfectly. Now... Was Sen behind after that attack? xD!!! Even if the protoss decided to pull back and transition into a macro game he would have been terribly behind anyways since he invested tons into earlier gateways and cutting probes! Also, you can still use those effing spine crawlers. Blizz didn't give you the uproot ability for no reason, Use your spines to defend one of your later expansions or for drops. In many ways the uproot ability is the equivalent to the salvage ability.
FighT wrote:
Bobo....omg bobo! July made the same mistakes IdrA did, no spines and bad drone timing. Maybe you should watch the second game of The World the Korea showmatch
Bobo wrote:
I'm not saying Cruncher didn't beat IdrA fair and square, because IdrA was pretty stupid to make drones once he saw that pushing coming. This is just what I got from the game after watching it three times. July lost the SAME build in the SAME position vs oGsMC in the GSL finals. That's when MC mannered Nexus him. Something about those positions and that build that makes it really fucking hard to stop on that map.
Not proving balance, because imo Spine Crawlers are pretty balanced. I'm telling you guys, from a Zergs perspective, why we don't use them as often as you guys say we should.Andeh wrote:
Bobotastic wrote:
FighT wrote:
Shroom wrote:
They're definitely powerful. I don't think it should be nerfed though. I haven't watched the games, but from what I've heard:
SpoilerIdra knew that a mass gateway unit push was coming and built 7 drones. Wtf? That's fair enough if he's going to make a bunch of spine crawlers (which look like they would've been better than units in that situation), but just staying on a few roach and making lots of drones when you know your opponent is about to drop the hammer, is a tad stupid.I could of course be talking about the wrong game. But IdrA is vulnerable to this type of shit. I honestly don't think he's a good person to use as an example for anything because even he could beat it he wouldn't make the necessary changes to do so imo. He literally believes the zerg should be able to comfortably macro no matter what his opponent is doing.
qft.
Spinecrawlers are so underused it's ridiculous. If Terran has to build 5-6 bunkers to stop this type of attack then why doesn't zerg have to build spine crawlers? Also you have to realise how much money is going into those sentries. He spent like 7-8 forcefields to trap 5 roaches, that's at least 4 sentries worth of energy at that point in the game.Because spine crawlers take 20 seconds more to build than a bunker. And if I build 5-6 spine crawlers, I can't salvage them and get my money back. Yes, I know that just because a Terran can salvage their bunkers doesn't mean they get their complete value back because of the time lost building the bunkers and not making the units. But the point is you CAN get the money back.
Your opponent moves out. You drop 5 bunkers. He see's it, he retreats, you scout it, you salvage your bunker and make an expansion, barracks, factory, whatever. A Zerg? I see Protoss move out, I drop 5 spine crawlers, it takes 20 more seconds to build, my opponent reaches my base, he sees spine crawlers, he retreats, now I'm stuck with 500 minerals that I can't get back and put behind. That is why spine crawlers are so "underused". Because given the time they take to build, they are not cost efficient, especially when your facing a formidable opponent(most apparent in higher tier skill levels) where your Protoss opponent will DENY your scouting, even if you sac an ovie, and you won't have enough time for your spine crawlers to finish. Watch the game and IdrA sacs an overlord and doesn't get any intel at all. By the time he sees Cruncher moves out, Crunchers natural is fairly saturated to support the 5 gate push that he did to take out IdrA. Plus, 20 seconds is a really fucking long time, especially in the positions on Crevasse where IdrA played Cruncher.
I'm not saying Cruncher didn't beat IdrA fair and square, because IdrA was pretty stupid to make drones once he saw that pushing coming. This is just what I got from the game after watching it three times. July lost the SAME build in the SAME position vs oGsMC in the GSL finals. That's when MC mannered Nexus him. Something about those positions and that build that makes it really fucking hard to stop on that map.I definitely agree with Fight, spines are really fucking good and with decent creep spread you can keep reusing them. Zergs are just getting to greedy. Comparing spines to bunkers is a bad way to prove balance.
Idra should have won, make no mistake, he is 100times better than cruncher, but not seeing the push come, and droning to heavy cost him the game, even with the epic forcefields, all it did was compound his mistakes. The problem with the whole forcefield debate is, zerg cant stall a push.... There are also a bunch of deficiencies for zerg imo, and I will list them just to be a bastard, hydras are too fucking slow, no stalling for early game pushes, and the only massive unit is terrible and comes later then its equivalent in P and T.
@Fight: Not cheesy imo, strong timing, and it was well executed
@Pioneer Idra is a better player, but he deserves to lose that game. Trying to do all that teching is just bad scouting and playing risky.
Also zerg is the best race at delaying pushes? Lings are fast enough to counter and defend in those positions.
The reason why Idra attacked with 5 roaches was because cruncher had all of his sentries in front of the stalkers and no zealots. If you snipe the sentries the push is over.
It is the equivalent of Terran doing something like 5 racks marine with no gas or add-ons off 2 bases. Please tell how you can possibly transition out of that. If you stop this kind of attack, you have such a massive advantage in the game that it is pretty much impossible for the opponent to come back. I admit that it's not an "all-in" but it is very gimicky and leaves you with a weaker economy, lower tech and a weaker army if it fails.Pioneer wrote:
@Fight: Not cheesy imo, strong timing, and it was well executed
@ Fight: Well I disagree its the same thing, he has a better gateway mix then an equivalent marine push, he has gas, and he has an expo as well. He was going to be short on gas, but thats not an unmanageable situation. I think Adelscott showed that any mix of gateway units upgraded properly with solid control is pretty damn strong ALL game. I do however agree his tech would have been light years behind if he failed, but I personally would just double forged upgrades and slow tech into colo, maybe use DTs first if I am at a heavy disadvantage. But its definitely not all in, or all that gimmicky, it was a little fragile, but still very manageable follow-ups. Though I think cruncher would have lost, since his follow up is double stargates and robo bay.... too turtley a style to beat idra in a long game.
Protoss delay in a different manner that isn't as punishing as a zerg. Lings can kill probes and gateways faster then it takes to warp shit in.
Saying that Zerg can only meet a push or counter just confuses me, can other race do something different?
Nestea vs goody was an example of what happens when you counter, the pushing player just keeps pushing (most of the time). I don't understand what else you be inferred from that statement...? Maybe you just misunderstood my point. Goody pushed, zerg couldn't stop it so nestea tried to counter. It was used as anecdotal evidence to support the fact that zerg either had to fight the army or counter.
I am pretty sure I answered your confusion. Protoss can forcefield endlessly. Terran has flexible walling (flying buildings) and can re-coop the money spent on bunkers.
Finally if you are making some sort of point that terran cant delay pushes situationally I strongly disagree. Depending on the opponent and the timing, we can either create artificial walls, or bunker up and get the dollars back later.
Lol, yes I am aware that marines are good all game. Well I guess the consideration is comparable then, I didn't realise he cut. I guess I should have inferred that. Admittedly though I still think the comparison to Adelscotts style is there, it wouldn't have been as strong, and certainly wouldn't have bought into a fast 3rd. Anyways I would have preferred idra to win, and certainly not lose to a lame 5 gate push, but the only point I wanted to make was I don't think its all that gimmicky, its a strong push to match his strengths and accentuate the weaknesses in idras play. By no means was it a cheese, which is what I wanted to discuss.FighT wrote:
Pioneer, you don't understand. Any warpgate rush you do involves cutting probe production to get out more gateways and units and also relies you to stay on low tech without taking any further expansions. You are behind in everything except units with this build, which is why if it doesn't do sufficient damage you are fucked. Also, why would you compare AdelScotts play with Crunchers? AdelScott did not cut probes to make extra gateways and units, instead he got double forge and expanded to try an gain a stronger economy. In other words he used his unit advantage he had by staying low tech to expand again to a 3rd and then slowly tech up. This is also a totally different match up where the dynamics are much different. And btw, Marines are pretty damn strong ALL game.
I WAS having a debate, until you saw fit to claim that I wasn't...Andeh wrote:
@Pioneer: I'm sorry it's my mistake for trying to debate over the internet. Your comments nearly broke my monitor.
BTW you just said "Considering you are only contesting my point on delaying pushes and zerg being the best at it I have no idea why you'd mention Goody v Nestea ". Well I didn't say that, and I wasn't contesting any of your points, I said countering is different to delaying a push.
So what exactly is your point? If you want to just say I am plain wrong because I broke your monitor with my opinions then you aren't interested in a discussion, but want me to accept your opinion as truth, of which I am kind of confused by. My bad if I offended you, but you can interpret whatever I say however you want, I make no claim to being a pro, or knowing everything. Make a point I can agree with and then I will accept your argument. Otherwise theres no need to resort to insult tactics.
EDIT: Reread my post, I said cant stall pushes. Read it again if you want.
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