TSL and forcefields

You said the with the whole forcefield debate is the fact that zerg can't stall a push. I contested this by saying zerg is the best race at delaying pushes because they have the fastest units. Then you replied with counter and delaying isn't the same thing and cited a game where there was no delaying at all. None. I pointed out that what you were talking about had nothing to do with delaying and went on to explain a little bit of what happened in the game 3 of Goody v Nestea on Tal'Darim Alter and I also gave a common example of when a zerg delays a push in ZvP. Then you said, "my point still stands that zerg cannot delay a push." You said this without giving any further evidence. The Goody v Nestea game does not support your case that zerg cannot delay, no delaying was attempted. Nestea only decided to act after the goody had already pushed to the location he wanted to be in.

If you were debating something different I'll admit it was my fault. I was being lazy, usually don't commit to discussion on forums for this reason, quoting, discussing meanings of words is a lot of work. :/ Looking back at this it seems that we have differing meaning on certain SC2 terms.

I'm not going to defend my last comment, it was a jab at your ability to debate. It was stupid, but I couldn't answer you seriously. My feels aren't hurt and I don't hold grudges, this is just one of those bad mannered internet discussions.

*Edited.

Rofl @ shroom.

Well I would like you to point out how can a zerg delay a push? By countering? If that's your point then my only argument is your interpretation of delay. Mine is, slowing down something (I am pretty sure that's what a dictionary would say as well, here I'll even quote the internets: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=delay). Therefore countering to me cannot logically be equivalent to delaying as the concept isn't consistent.

Countering is the act of attacking, not defending, that's why its called a counter-attack. If it just so happens to get people to return to base, thats either tactical error, or coincidental. A counter attack also generally implies that you have defended successfully and are attacking in return to eek out a certain advantage.

In the end, there was no ill manner intended, so don't take it that way plox, I have a very strong personality, and I can seem combative, but thats just cause i am a competitive fuck.

Why delay the push when you can just fucking smack the shit out of it when it arrives?

Push is the act of moving across the map (at the enemy). To delay a push, to slow or postpone, would be to forcefield areas, fungal an army or force them to retreat by using whatever necessary. This can be muta harass, nydus, drops, ling run bys. The zerg is the best at this because it has the most options when it comes to delaying pushes and have the fastest units in the game. The zerg also has the most benefit from delaying pushes.

A counterattack is a military battlefield tactic used by some or all of a defending force against their attackers. The general objective is to negate or thwart the advantage gained by the enemy in attack and the specific objectives are usually to regain lost ground or to destroy attacking enemy units.

Sometimes wiki is soooo good.

A 4 WARPGATE RUSH OFF 1 BASE IS A VERSATILE, VERY FLEXIBLE AND SAFE STRATEGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@Andeh: well either way I don't consider a counter-attack a delay. It can be used as a tactic to hopefully delay the push, but that doesn't mean a counter-attack is a delay, it means a counter-attack is still, and continues to remain a tactic. What I mean is, you cannot physically delay (ie. slow down, stop) by counter-attacking. But now we are arguing semantics, and you're open to your interpret something anyway you want man. I can see your point, but I just plain old-fashioned, disagree.

@Fight: Read his interview btw, he didn't intend that push to win him the game, just to do some damage. (Link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=206261). Also; troll.

You could just admit you are wrong, we are talking about starcraft theory not english. Counterattacking is a legitimate strategy to slow down oncoming pushes. If you disagree with this I could probably find direct quotes from players like dimaga, sheth, idra, ect, to agree with this idea with delaying pushes.

So you are disputing the fact that counter-attacking is a tactic, not a physical delay of an attack?

S: (n) tactic, tactics, maneuver, manoeuvre (a plan for attaining a particular goal)
Source: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=tactic

If you your argument is that pros say it is an effective method of delaying a push, then you are wrong. Running into someone's base before they have moved out is a completely different situation to the one you are arguing. And not wanting to argue English doesn't back you up at all, its still not the same thing as force fielding your ramp, because that's an act of stalling the incoming attack, not hoping he turns around. I also kind of fail to see how the words counter-attack become somehow different when applied to starcraft??

"I'm going to do a transitionless build and transition out of it!" - Cruncher

You said, "But now we are arguing semantics, and you're open to your interpret something anyway you want man. I can see your point, but I just plain old-fashioned, disagree." Then I said get fucked with your semantics, repeat what I said a post prior and add if you disagree there are people with more authority in this subject that would probably attest to my idea and then you some how think I'm disputing something new. The last time I used the word tactic was two posts ago and how the fuck do I start an argue with the words, If you disagree. I haven't outlined any specific situation the only specific situation I have mention is the Goody v Nestea you used as an example to state that zerg is bad at delaying and all I said was this doesn't even relate to the idea of delaying, which is the only thing I am arguing about. So I really think you are confused. It's pretty ridiculous have you still want to argue this. You have degraded to saying counter-attacking doesn't necessarily delay a push, IT could but that's coincidental. You could have the intent, you could do it, it might work most of the time, but it doesn't actually delay the push. Even in the most literal sense if I send my lings to his base and he is 'A' moving he is delayed. He would be even more delayed if he had to run back a little bit back. Fuck just admit you are wrong, I'm not going to reply again. You are clealy confused and hopefully my lack of editing and rereading will add to it. Thanks for reminding me to never post on forums.

Ok so we all agree that spines ~= bunkers and that force fields are OP?