For My Protoss Buddies. (Zergs: read at your own risk!)

Basically, I was reading TL.net for the first time in months and much to my liking I stumbled upon a post for some craaaaaZy PvZ build. So I checked that shit out yo!

So, the build mainly consists of DTs and Phoenix harassment. You do whatever opening you like, as long as it is an FE, make a Stargate first and then when you have enough gas, throw down a DT shrine. You will NEED 4 gas guysers. I would recommend hiding the Stargate for as long as possible so you have a chance of doing damage before spores go up. You will NEED 4 gas geysers and you will NEED to cannon up your natural. It's really hard to defend an all-in so get some early sentries out.

After you have set up your wall, your DT shrine is done and you have a few Phoenixs, you are pretty much immune to any early game attacks. If they attack you warp in DTs and carve their shit up, whilst sniping all overseers with Phoenixs. From what I've tried in customs, you can actually harass Zergs to death, and I would say a fair few of them would just rage quit... If you make a void ray or 2 you can keep the Zerg completely on 2 bases whilst harassing where you can with DTs and Phoenix. You should aim the kill Spores/Workers with DTs and kill Queens/Overseers with Phoenix.

Sounds pretty imba... right? Well it is no build for the faint of heart! Seriously, without APM spamming even a little bit my APM averaged around 220 every game that I tried this build. It is absolutely CRUCIAL that you can maintain a high APM to be able to macro your bases, expand, harass with phnx, harass with DT, snipe bases with voids AND defend ling run-bys.
Not only that, but, you are very susceptible to early aggression depending on what map you are on. For maps like Shattered Temple and Tal'Darim a good simcity wall will hold early aggression but for other maps you'd best have pro unit control.

The build is specifically designed for the PvZ match-up, it would not work in any other match-up.

Here is the direct link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=237611


I will immediately start refining this Strategy and working out the most effective opener for it. I'll be trying to make it as efficient as possible and test it against several different Zerg builds, so if some Zergies could help me out that would be sweet :D.

TLnet strategy section comes out with like 1 good strat every 3months... and generally its already pretty famous. Glad you found something that isn't retarded.

Pioneer wrote:

TLnet strategy section comes out with like 1 good strat every 3months... and generally its already pretty famous. Glad you found something that isn't retarded.

I was surprised also. Mainly perplexing that a pro hadn't thought of it, in it's purest essence this strat really is deadly.

The build sounds really good Prohan. However any all in build will probably beat it. Eg Roach ling all in

DropFruit wrote:

The build sounds really good Prohan. However any all in build will probably beat it. Eg Roach ling all in

As I stated in the OP ^_^

This is basically Bisu PvZ style from BW. I'm sure people would have tried it before, they probably failed due to inability to hold against roach all-ins as they are stronger than the standard Hydralisk all-ins we saw so often saw in bw. I guess people didn't realise how good sentries are for defence and they probably didn't know what to scout for and what signaled an all-in so they weren't able to react properly.

Btw, what is the standard army transition for this build? Do you go into the standard collosus death ball, or do you use the twilight council to make a templar archives and go for some immortal/High Templar mixture?

FighT wrote:

Btw, what is the standard army transition for this build? Do you go into the standard collosus death ball, or do you use the twilight council to make a templar archives and go for some immortal/High Templar mixture?

What are you, mad? You transition into MOTHER FUCKING CARRIERS!

ProHan wrote:

FighT wrote:

Btw, what is the standard army transition for this build? Do you go into the standard collosus death ball, or do you use the twilight council to make a templar archives and go for some immortal/High Templar mixture?

What are you, mad? You transition into MOTHER FUCKING CARRIERS!

K thx.

Seems very good against a zerg that is not expecting it. But seems realy gas heavy and prone to roach/ling all in. And even if a Zerg doesn't expect it, a good Zerg will always drop down a spore crawler because stargate transition in DT's are becoming more common, and spore crawlers are just so good since their root time decrease.

As a Zerg player, if I see low number of sentries, there are either 2 things going on, 1)Toss is going Stargate tech, 2)Toss is going DT tech. Either way, for both of those, I need to get spore crawlers. Denial of scouting will be key for this build to be effective, imo.

So I have been testing this build out to the best of my ability verse some above average Zergs and below average Zergs.
I have, so far, concluded the following:

1. The best openings for this build is a forge fast expand or a 16 Nexus.

2. When versing higher leagued Zergs, eventually they get to the point where they get "fed up" and will mass Hydras/Roach and attack your front. If you do not make a substantial amount of cannons and bring your DTs/Phnx back, you will most likely die. However, if you hold this attack you have pretty much won the game.

3. When versing higher leagued Zergs, often they will have a lot of leftover ground units (non anti-air) which they will sometimes use to try to prevent you from taking a 3rd. When taking your third, start building cannons before building the Nexus. And leave a few Zealots.

4. Lower leagued Zergs and Higher leagued Zergs can never really figure out the optimal amount of Spores & Spines they need @ each base to prevent both Phnx and DT, some will throw a shit tonne of each down, some will throw minimal down. Either way, it greatly benefits you.

5. It is best that you deny scouting for as long as possible. However, should they see your Stargate, it is likely they will begin to transition into anti-air straight away. So if they scout your Stargate it is a very good idea to begin building your Dark Shrine, as they will not build spine crawlers, only spores, which can be killed by the DTs. If they are pushing your harassment back with a small amount of units, kill the overseer then run the Phnxs away and let the DTs do their work. If they bring their whole army, send the Phnxs somewhere else and split the DTs over several bases.

6. Preventing the third base from going up is actually extremely easy, all you need to do is leave 1 void ray at the third, and whenever they move out to attack it you move in with Phoenix's are harass overlords until they get the idea that they have to send a small amount of Hydras to kill the Void Ray, in which case you send all your Phoenix to kill those Hydras.

7. It is absolutely imperative that you keep a solid 9 Phoenixes, no more and no less. 9 is what I found to be the optimal amount of harassment-cost effective Phoenixes. If you lose a couple, replace them, but never be under or over 9 Phoenixes. If you feel like you want to dominate the air a bit more, make more Voids and put them in your main army (Void rays demolish Hydralisks when they are in a main army.)

8. Sometimes you will get the urge to just move in with your entire army and try to kill the Zerg right then and there. RESIST THIS URGE. Zerg are still EXTREMELY strong on 2 bases, and since you will have mostly zealot heavy gateway army with DTs, Phnx and some Voids you will get overrun due to lack or reinforcement capabilities. It is crucial that you base camp

9. HOLY MOLY you need a fucking insanely high APM. It is very very very easy to just forget about many many things, like Upgrades and Third Base Timing. However, it's crucial that you don't forget about these things because they are what maintains your lead.



To summarise, the idea of this build is to throw so much harassment at the Zerg that they can't do anything but counter that harassment. This means that they won't be harassing you, they won't be teching, they won't be droning and they certainly will not be taking anymore bases. It's perfectly fine that the Zerg will build heaps of spores and Hydras, because Spores are static defense that cost money/drones and cannot be used in a battle and Hydras are easily countered and in all honesty are pretty useless.

Honestly being super critical of this build it is very hard to work.
Heaps of people have tried to replicate the effectiveness of the bisu build for ages but to no avail.
The gas needed for this build is ridiculously high, how do you plan on upgrading, teching to further things while still maintaining a reasonable count of dt's and pheonixes. You're relying on essentially cannons and zealots due to the lack of gas.

The build banks on the zerg not being able to respond correctly, when faced with the build you actually are unable to kill the zerg. You have harrassing units and you're relying on them to stay contained for a long period of time to gain the huge lead to win.
What happens if your dt's failed to begin with? DT's being delayed by stargate tech means they come even later, having spores surround by units can effectively deny DT's. Leaving you zealots and cannons to defend against potential roaches which can deny your own third.

Lastly using pheonixes to snipe overseers aren't easy, they take quite a while to snipe, one sitting over a hydra army means you lose half your pheonixes to snipe an overseer. Having infestors basically, lock in your pheonix if they try to snipe meaning you lose every pheonix, can take out clumps of DT's if you aren't careful, can kill your zealot army due to your lack of gas for other units making them useless.

This build can work if your opponent is inexperienced in it and taken by surprise but is generally very hard to use when they do catch on.

DropTester wrote:

Honestly being super critical of this build it is very hard to work.
Heaps of people have tried to replicate the effectiveness of the bisu build for ages but to no avail.
The gas needed for this build is ridiculously high, how do you plan on upgrading, teching to further things while still maintaining a reasonable count of dt's and pheonixes. You're relying on essentially cannons and zealots due to the lack of gas.

The build banks on the zerg not being able to respond correctly, when faced with the build you actually are unable to kill the zerg. You have harrassing units and you're relying on them to stay contained for a long period of time to gain the huge lead to win.
What happens if your dt's failed to begin with? DT's being delayed by stargate tech means they come even later, having spores surround by units can effectively deny DT's. Leaving you zealots and cannons to defend against potential roaches which can deny your own third.

Lastly using pheonixes to snipe overseers aren't easy, they take quite a while to snipe, one sitting over a hydra army means you lose half your pheonixes to snipe an overseer. Having infestors basically, lock in your pheonix if they try to snipe meaning you lose every pheonix, can take out clumps of DT's if you aren't careful, can kill your zealot army due to your lack of gas for other units making them useless.

This build can work if your opponent is inexperienced in it and taken by surprise but is generally very hard to use when they do catch on.

Firstly, I think you underestimate how good map control is, it is extremely hard for the opponent to expand or even move out of his base with map control as strong as DTs and pheonixes.

Secondly, scouting in the early game is obivously going to be extremely important in this build as it was with the Bisu style in BW, you should be able to hold off any early bust with a sufficient wall and the right amount of canons (I see forge expands like this all the time so I'm not sure what you are worried about here), also the hydra bust you were talking about is retarded because it would come soooooo late and be so weak, fragile and also risky against just about every other protoss build, the only time something like this could happen is if this build became the standard build in the metagame and even then it is extremely risky.

Thirdly, how many pheonixes and DTs do you think you have to make??? I believe 4-6 pheonixes and 2-3 DTs is enough to get the job done before you should be transitioning into a solid army to attack or safely take a 3rd base.

And lastly, I disagree about the inexperienced part. Yes, some zergs will be able to stop this without taking too much damage but it's the indirect damage that I believe is the most important part of this build, the zerg HAS to build spores, extra queens and overseers. The zerg will also be deprived of their sweet sweet map control that they always seem to have in every match up, this stops them from safely droning up and expanding so easily, something that happens in just about every PvZ i see.

All I'm saying is don't write anything out so easily without testing the style out for at least a while. Just make sure you have a strong transition into a good solid unit composition. I do not endorse Prohans Carrier transition rofl.

DropTester wrote:

Honestly being super critical of this build it is very hard to work.
Heaps of people have tried to replicate the effectiveness of the bisu build for ages but to no avail.
The gas needed for this build is ridiculously high, how do you plan on upgrading, teching to further things while still maintaining a reasonable count of dt's and pheonixes. You're relying on essentially cannons and zealots due to the lack of gas.

The build banks on the zerg not being able to respond correctly, when faced with the build you actually are unable to kill the zerg. You have harrassing units and you're relying on them to stay contained for a long period of time to gain the huge lead to win.
What happens if your dt's failed to begin with? DT's being delayed by stargate tech means they come even later, having spores surround by units can effectively deny DT's. Leaving you zealots and cannons to defend against potential roaches which can deny your own third.

Lastly using pheonixes to snipe overseers aren't easy, they take quite a while to snipe, one sitting over a hydra army means you lose half your pheonixes to snipe an overseer. Having infestors basically, lock in your pheonix if they try to snipe meaning you lose every pheonix, can take out clumps of DT's if you aren't careful, can kill your zealot army due to your lack of gas for other units making them useless.

This build can work if your opponent is inexperienced in it and taken by surprise but is generally very hard to use when they do catch on.

Firstly, I think you underestimate how good map control is, it is extremely hard for the opponent to expand or even move out of his base with map control as strong as DTs and pheonixes.

Secondly, scouting in the early game is obivously going to be extremely important in this build as it was with the Bisu style in BW, you should be able to hold off any early bust with a sufficient wall and the right amount of canons (I see forge expands like this all the time so I'm not sure what you are worried about here), also the hydra bust you were talking about is retarded because it would come soooooo late and be so weak, fragile and also risky against just about every other protoss build, the only time something like this could happen is if this build became the standard build in the metagame and even then it is extremely risky.

Thirdly, how many pheonixes and DTs do you think you have to make??? I believe 4-6 pheonixes and 2-3 DTs is enough to get the job done before you should be transitioning into a solid army to attack or safely take a 3rd base.

And lastly, I disagree about the inexperienced part. Yes, some zergs will be able to stop this without taking too much damage but it's the indirect damage that I believe is the most important part of this build, the zerg HAS to build spores, extra queens and overseers. The zerg will also be deprived of their sweet sweet map control that they always seem to have in every match up, this stops them from safely droning up and expanding so easily, something that happens in just about every PvZ i see.

All I'm saying is don't write anything out so easily without testing the style out for at least a while. Just make sure you have a strong transition into a good solid unit composition. I do not endorse Prohans Carrier transition rofl.

What FighT said.

Except, carriers is totally viable man. White-Ra special taktikz!

but knowing the fact that these units have no ability to actually kill you means they can freely drone without fear as there is a lack gas to create a substantial army that could scare them.

4-6 pheonixes kill overseers very slowly, and infestors are a nightmare to deal with.

DropTester wrote:

but knowing the fact that these units have no ability to actually kill you means they can freely drone without fear as there is a lack gas to create a substantial army that could scare them.

4-6 pheonixes kill overseers very slowly, and infestors are a nightmare to deal with.

yes but then zerg has committed to defending 2 bases with static while the protoss is free to take a 3rd and has unlocked most of two tech trees. if hes going to get out infestors off 2 base to deal with 4-6 pheonix while the protoss takes a 3rd thats death.

i think the build sounds hard but fun and would have a very tricky/lucky early game, but it sounds viable for sure.

DropTester wrote:

but knowing the fact that these units have no ability to actually kill you means they can freely drone without fear as there is a lack gas to create a substantial army that could scare them.

4-6 pheonixes kill overseers very slowly, and infestors are a nightmare to deal with.

I don't think you understand the power of harassment :P.
Zergs cannot freely drone, because then they die very soon after, not to mention they will mine out their bases uber quickly.
The Zerg has to build units & spores & spines to immediately counter the harassment, and even then they cant mass units because Phnxs supply cap the Zerg, then DTs start killing off spores and tech buildings. I've used it against pretty good Zergs and they are lost for a cause.

DropTester wrote:

but knowing the fact that these units have no ability to actually kill you means they can freely drone without fear as there is a lack gas to create a substantial army that could scare them.

4-6 pheonixes kill overseers very slowly, and infestors are a nightmare to deal with.

errr... why are you so worried about overseers lol? Just think how retarded it would be for zerg in BW to tech to lair and ONLY then do some kind of attack? If you lose to that, then there is something really wrong with your mechanics or transitioning.

Also, I do agree that the zerg can drone up harder, but that comes with every harrassment build you do. You OBVIOUSLY have to do gain something from the harrassment you are doing. If they drone up too hard you will have map control for even longer anyways making you even safer.

I feel like everything you say is just theorycraft sometimes.

DropTester wrote:

but knowing the fact that these units have no ability to actually kill you means they can freely drone without fear as there is a lack gas to create a substantial army that could scare them.

4-6 pheonixes kill overseers very slowly, and infestors are a nightmare to deal with.

errr... why are you so worried about overseers lol? Just think how retarded it would be for zerg in BW to tech to lair and ONLY then do some kind of attack? If you lose to that, then there is something really wrong with your mechanics or transitioning.

Also, I do agree that the zerg can drone up harder, but that comes with every harrassment build you do. You OBVIOUSLY have to do gain something from the harrassment you are doing. If they drone up too hard you will have map control for even longer anyways making you even safer.

I feel like everything you say is just theorycraft sometimes.

ProHan wrote:

DropTester wrote:

but knowing the fact that these units have no ability to actually kill you means they can freely drone without fear as there is a lack gas to create a substantial army that could scare them.

4-6 pheonixes kill overseers very slowly, and infestors are a nightmare to deal with.

I don't think you understand the power of harassment :P.
Zergs cannot freely drone, because then they die very soon after, not to mention they will mine out their bases uber quickly.
The Zerg has to build units & spores & spines to immediately counter the harassment, and even then they cant mass units because Phnxs supply cap the Zerg, then DTs start killing off spores and tech buildings. I've used it against pretty good Zergs and they are lost for a cause.

I do agree with what you guys are saying. Map control is what makes Zerg Zerg and if you take that away, any Zerg that is not used to it will be a in a very awkward and uncomfortable position.

However, one thing I don't agree is with the statement "we have to make shitload of static defense to stay alive." If you ever seen Hasuobs vs MorroW in the IEM, Hasuobs does something somewhat like this build. Not sure if its EXACTLY like it, but in essence he was harassing and had map control with DTs and Phoenix's for the early game and much of the mid-game.

But MorroW owned him. Why? Well for one, hes Swedish. That's imba as it is. And also he made a spore at each base, roaches, and spine crawler at each base and proceeded to tech to his usual baneling/corruptor/ling mix while camping till he was safe to move out. You don't need a shit tons of static defense. You don't need more than 1 spore crawler at a base to defend against DT's, and if you got hydras and/or corruptors, you won't need anymore, also adding the fact that you will have queens with transfuse(if your not a nub and save up your energy). You'll need an overseer if you move out of course, but if you got hydra and/or corruptors, the pheonixs wont be able to snipe it. Luckily he took his third once he scouted the phoenix which I think is a good response from a Zerg seeing that 1)Phoenix's don't attack ground, 2)You got 2 minutes or so before the DT's are going to actually be out before they begin their harass shenanigans.

My 2 cents. It's a good strategy, dont get me wrong, but just like when Bisu started doing this build over and over in BW, if this build becomes "mainstream" for the lack of a better term, its going to become just a build to give you early map control, and that's it. You will only win if the Zerg forgets an evolution chamber or something, which is a careless mistake. It's like forgetting to build sentries or forgetting stim pack. Hardly ever see a Zerg not have an evolution chamber before his lair is half done.